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	<title>Comments on: Bitcoin security</title>
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	<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/</link>
	<description>Sarah and Alaric Snell-Pym living in interesting times</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 00:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/comment-page-1/#comment-162182</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jun 2011 18:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/?p=2567#comment-162182</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There's a very simple way that criminal enterprises will get round the tracing that you've described.  They already have access to thousands of computers at different addresses via botnets.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A botnet would be perfect for the bitcoin laundering process you describe above.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's a very simple way that criminal enterprises will get round the tracing that you've described.  They already have access to thousands of computers at different addresses via botnets.</p>

<p>A botnet would be perfect for the bitcoin laundering process you describe above.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: alaric</title>
		<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/comment-page-1/#comment-161176</link>
		<dc:creator>alaric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 12:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/?p=2567#comment-161176</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yikes, the formatting went a bit funny on Mark's comments there.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for laundering money via Bitcoin and other forms of online currency (and, presumably, out into actual cash that you then transport via other means, and gold, and so on) - these are all part of the existing money laundering industry, though. I guess the point I'm trying to make isn't that you can't launder Bitcoin, but that for law enforcement, it's not really largely worse than the current situation. Whether the benefits of a global transaction stream they can pipe straight into their supercomputers versus the ease of micropaying between random identities via Tor to launder your own bitcoins play out as harder or easier than cash laundering remains to be seen, but either way, I think it's roughly the same &lt;em&gt;order of magnitude&lt;/em&gt; as cash, and so not a horrible new threat that needs stamping on from above...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Yeah, "bad apples" will use it, but what I mean is more that they shouldn't flock to it as a lovely new panacea for transferring money without legal oversight. From the perspective of a criminal, I'd be very suspicious of the security of bitcoin compared to the traditional briefcases full of nonsequential bills and so on!&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yikes, the formatting went a bit funny on Mark's comments there.</p>

<p>As for laundering money via Bitcoin and other forms of online currency (and, presumably, out into actual cash that you then transport via other means, and gold, and so on) - these are all part of the existing money laundering industry, though. I guess the point I'm trying to make isn't that you can't launder Bitcoin, but that for law enforcement, it's not really largely worse than the current situation. Whether the benefits of a global transaction stream they can pipe straight into their supercomputers versus the ease of micropaying between random identities via Tor to launder your own bitcoins play out as harder or easier than cash laundering remains to be seen, but either way, I think it's roughly the same <em>order of magnitude</em> as cash, and so not a horrible new threat that needs stamping on from above...</p>

<p>Yeah, "bad apples" will use it, but what I mean is more that they shouldn't flock to it as a lovely new panacea for transferring money without legal oversight. From the perspective of a criminal, I'd be very suspicious of the security of bitcoin compared to the traditional briefcases full of nonsequential bills and so on!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mark Herpel</title>
		<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/comment-page-1/#comment-161164</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Herpel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 May 2011 20:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/?p=2567#comment-161164</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;(the gov considers everyone using a non-bank unlicensed financial system a bad apple)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;"So, I think bitcoin will be a boon for law enforcement, as it'll overally make it easier to trace down the financial activities of bad apples."&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;True but it's FAR from being a full proof way to track funds. It's very naive to think that your statement is at all accurate, a majority of funds bouncing around in the digital world will move between currency. (1)As an example, an agent will accept Bitcoin and pay out Liberty Reserve leaving no absolutely no way to trace. (2)Anyone out there swapping Second life currency, Facebook credits or some other online digital unit for Bitcoin? (3)Funds may be paid in a deposit of an online a game, a few hands of poker played and funds withdrawn. (4)Merchandise can be purchased and resold via eBay. There's an endless global supply of outlets and exchanges for digital currency. The few rare circumstances you mention for tracing transactions could soon become the exception not the norm. All of this has been done before over the past decade with other digital currency, it's really shocking how many people think Bitcoin is the first of it's kind.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;"Therefore, the bad apples won't use it much..."&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;HA, we'll all have to stand in front of the mirror and repeat that phrase each morning. You got to be kidding me you believe that one.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;"...which will help to give the network a good reputation and encourage legitimate take-up."&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I really wish that were true. The only thing which will encourage legitimate business to accept it will be a government license and printed regulations, otherwise it's the wild west and anything goes and that won't last. Don't get me wrong, I love the wild west, I'm trying to give you some heads up, if you think this will all be rainbows and puppies, you're in for a fricken big surprise, get out of the US with this business, THEY DON'T WANT IT. The first to go is always be the agents exchanging the digital to national currency. The banks will close their accounts, they will be prosecuted or both. Don't do it through the US and I'd say it will all be fine.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;[ed: fixed formatting]&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(the gov considers everyone using a non-bank unlicensed financial system a bad apple)</p>

<p>"So, I think bitcoin will be a boon for law enforcement, as it'll overally make it easier to trace down the financial activities of bad apples."</p>

<p>True but it's FAR from being a full proof way to track funds. It's very naive to think that your statement is at all accurate, a majority of funds bouncing around in the digital world will move between currency. (1)As an example, an agent will accept Bitcoin and pay out Liberty Reserve leaving no absolutely no way to trace. (2)Anyone out there swapping Second life currency, Facebook credits or some other online digital unit for Bitcoin? (3)Funds may be paid in a deposit of an online a game, a few hands of poker played and funds withdrawn. (4)Merchandise can be purchased and resold via eBay. There's an endless global supply of outlets and exchanges for digital currency. The few rare circumstances you mention for tracing transactions could soon become the exception not the norm. All of this has been done before over the past decade with other digital currency, it's really shocking how many people think Bitcoin is the first of it's kind.</p>

<p>"Therefore, the bad apples won't use it much..."</p>

<p>HA, we'll all have to stand in front of the mirror and repeat that phrase each morning. You got to be kidding me you believe that one.</p>

<p>"...which will help to give the network a good reputation and encourage legitimate take-up."</p>

<p>I really wish that were true. The only thing which will encourage legitimate business to accept it will be a government license and printed regulations, otherwise it's the wild west and anything goes and that won't last. Don't get me wrong, I love the wild west, I'm trying to give you some heads up, if you think this will all be rainbows and puppies, you're in for a fricken big surprise, get out of the US with this business, THEY DON'T WANT IT. The first to go is always be the agents exchanging the digital to national currency. The banks will close their accounts, they will be prosecuted or both. Don't do it through the US and I'd say it will all be fine.</p>

<p>[ed: fixed formatting]</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Vandroiy</title>
		<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/comment-page-1/#comment-161128</link>
		<dc:creator>Vandroiy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 17:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/?p=2567#comment-161128</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I'm not so sure about the tracking. Any service that allows users to add and withdraw BTC might be used to obscure the flow. Right now, if mtgox decides to make its internal transactions obscure to an observing authority, I see little chance of tracking coins that entered it. They might flow out as BTC in any quantization to any target, and are mixed up with massive amounts of other transactions that enter and exit.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Relaying transactions over a hijacked machine anywhere should be trivial as well. The methods of tracking proposed are not reliable.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I don't think that's so bad though. Cash is similar, it's always been there, but the world didn't crumble yet. Okay, it's faster and easier to transport BTC. But for large amounts that have enough of a criminal origin to require laundering in the first place, speed is not that much of an issue. I don't think the difference will be all too big.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm not so sure about the tracking. Any service that allows users to add and withdraw BTC might be used to obscure the flow. Right now, if mtgox decides to make its internal transactions obscure to an observing authority, I see little chance of tracking coins that entered it. They might flow out as BTC in any quantization to any target, and are mixed up with massive amounts of other transactions that enter and exit.</p>

<p>Relaying transactions over a hijacked machine anywhere should be trivial as well. The methods of tracking proposed are not reliable.</p>

<p>I don't think that's so bad though. Cash is similar, it's always been there, but the world didn't crumble yet. Okay, it's faster and easier to transport BTC. But for large amounts that have enough of a criminal origin to require laundering in the first place, speed is not that much of an issue. I don't think the difference will be all too big.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Yuliy</title>
		<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/comment-page-1/#comment-161126</link>
		<dc:creator>Yuliy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 16:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/?p=2567#comment-161126</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don't buy your arguments that BitCoin is traceable, especially when used by organized crime.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The presence of botnets makes the claim that someone's BitCoin activity can be traced bogus. Also, as Jon pointed out, the BitCoin activity stream cannot be an effective way of determining the entire story.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Very few people need untraceable irrevocable transfers. And of those people, even fewer need them for legitimate purposes.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't buy your arguments that BitCoin is traceable, especially when used by organized crime.</p>

<p>The presence of botnets makes the claim that someone's BitCoin activity can be traced bogus. Also, as Jon pointed out, the BitCoin activity stream cannot be an effective way of determining the entire story.</p>

<p>Very few people need untraceable irrevocable transfers. And of those people, even fewer need them for legitimate purposes.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jon Matonis</title>
		<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/comment-page-1/#comment-161124</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Matonis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 14:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/?p=2567#comment-161124</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Excellent read...clearly written by someone who understands mechanics of digital bearer cash.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You point on transactional tracing definitely made me think about 'self-contained pools' and 'transaction timing'.  However, I don't think you are considering a structure of unrelated, unconnected mutual offset accounts as are used today in correspondent banking. For example, a Pound Sterling transaction comes in and a Japanese Yen transaction goes out without the two ever connecting because the offset is conducted off the grid.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also, as more 'mixer' services -- http://bitcoinlaundry.com/ and http://app.bitlaundry.com/ -- come on line, the greater the pool of dead-end transactions and the greater the opportunity for unrelated, off-the-grid offsets.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent read...clearly written by someone who understands mechanics of digital bearer cash.</p>

<p>You point on transactional tracing definitely made me think about 'self-contained pools' and 'transaction timing'.  However, I don't think you are considering a structure of unrelated, unconnected mutual offset accounts as are used today in correspondent banking. For example, a Pound Sterling transaction comes in and a Japanese Yen transaction goes out without the two ever connecting because the offset is conducted off the grid.</p>

<p>Also, as more 'mixer' services -- <a href="http://bitcoinlaundry.com/" rel="nofollow">http://bitcoinlaundry.com/</a> and <a href="http://app.bitlaundry.com/" rel="nofollow">http://app.bitlaundry.com/</a> -- come on line, the greater the pool of dead-end transactions and the greater the opportunity for unrelated, off-the-grid offsets.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jaime Nunez</title>
		<link>http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2011/05/12/bitcoin-security/comment-page-1/#comment-161118</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaime Nunez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 11:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/?p=2567#comment-161118</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Very good analysis, covering many of the issues we are all thinking about regarding this bitcoin currency.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good analysis, covering many of the issues we are all thinking about regarding this bitcoin currency.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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